Many of the people here are clearly interested in the human side of social software: exploring how human relationships change when they're mediated through some technological means. Another interesting side of it, though, is what the machines can tell us about ourselves and our relationships -- information that we might not actually be aware of.
There are a few obvious ways that one might explore this: rather than depending solely upon the explicit, stated relationships between people, what happens if the machines that are mediating those relationships track interactions or types of behavior? Alice frequently initiates discussion threads, as does Dennis, but Bob and Carol both tend to respond to threads started by others. Edward frequently responds to Alice's postings, as does Carol (and perhaps Edward and Carol are responding to posts in different "tribes" and therefore missing the implied relationship between them). Edward and Carol don't have a stated relationship to one another, but is it significant that they interact with the same person? Dunno, but possibly an interesting direction to explore.
On a slightly different track, since latent semantic analysis is a big deal in some other areas of technology where I spend time poking around, I ended up wondering whether some of these principles could be applied.
There are a few interesting papers out there on "discriminative clustering of text documents," for example. By analyzing the contents of text documents, machines can rather accurately group them (the groupings generally end up being very similar to the groupings applied by human editors).
Note: this has been applied primarily to academic and scientific papers (so the texts are generally internally consistent and homogeneous), which leaves a potentially gaping hole in the speculation to follow. But...let's say that the body of text that someone contributes to a site such as this one constitutes their "text;" the machines then group these texts, creating meta-tribes of people who write about the same sorts of things.
This is, of course, potentially problematic as the texts in this scenario may contain so much "noise" that effective grouping is impossible. In addition, this analysis won't be able to factor context in, opening up the possibility for pretty weird classifications.
Still, it's an interesting area. We hear a lot about what you lose in machine-mediated social relationships -- are there things that can be enhanced or added by those machines?
There are a few obvious ways that one might explore this: rather than depending solely upon the explicit, stated relationships between people, what happens if the machines that are mediating those relationships track interactions or types of behavior? Alice frequently initiates discussion threads, as does Dennis, but Bob and Carol both tend to respond to threads started by others. Edward frequently responds to Alice's postings, as does Carol (and perhaps Edward and Carol are responding to posts in different "tribes" and therefore missing the implied relationship between them). Edward and Carol don't have a stated relationship to one another, but is it significant that they interact with the same person? Dunno, but possibly an interesting direction to explore.
On a slightly different track, since latent semantic analysis is a big deal in some other areas of technology where I spend time poking around, I ended up wondering whether some of these principles could be applied.
There are a few interesting papers out there on "discriminative clustering of text documents," for example. By analyzing the contents of text documents, machines can rather accurately group them (the groupings generally end up being very similar to the groupings applied by human editors).
Note: this has been applied primarily to academic and scientific papers (so the texts are generally internally consistent and homogeneous), which leaves a potentially gaping hole in the speculation to follow. But...let's say that the body of text that someone contributes to a site such as this one constitutes their "text;" the machines then group these texts, creating meta-tribes of people who write about the same sorts of things.
This is, of course, potentially problematic as the texts in this scenario may contain so much "noise" that effective grouping is impossible. In addition, this analysis won't be able to factor context in, opening up the possibility for pretty weird classifications.
Still, it's an interesting area. We hear a lot about what you lose in machine-mediated social relationships -- are there things that can be enhanced or added by those machines?
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 6, 2004 - 2:00 PMThere was a research in Microsoft about finding the people who are the 'answer people' in usenet fora, they pressumed that those that are the last in threads are the people who give athoritative answers to questions. This approaches allegedly gives practical results.
As to the other idea about clustering texts - this all depends on the efficiency of those algorithms. Google does have a 'find similar pages' button - but it does not work too well for me.
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 6, 2004 - 4:21 PMwhen i ran an online dating service w/ a friend we collected and showed data on how many messages a person had received, how many they'd answered, how many they'd sent, how many times browsed, last visit, etc. People began using that data to figure out whether they should be upset that they hadnt gotten a response. I think this kind of stuff can be very helpful. We'd use it to send messages to women who hadnt responded to any letters yet, as a way of goading them out of lurking... -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 6, 2004 - 10:20 PMI mentioned this in a thread in another tribe, but I think it bears repeating. Someone had mentioned that the model for most social networks is "friend" or "not friend," which leads to a bit of a problem when navigating, in that you have to make a value judgement on someone. The more you make that same value judgement, the less valuable it is-the more friends you have linked to you, the less likely it is that you are actually friends with them.
What I proposed was a network that took this into account, and allowed you to label another user with several different relationship appellations, such as "acquaintance," "business contact," or even "enemy." At another layer, the system would track actual message traffic between you and other users. Do you respond a lot to a given person? Does someone else respond to you a lot? An occasional request for you to evaluate the character of the communication (helpful response versus "me too" versus flame) would allow the network to suggest connections to people that you may not otherwise be aware of. -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Wed, April 7, 2004 - 6:37 AMThis is a good idea. A while back, a few of my 'tribe friends' - Phil, Chris, Zbigniew, John, had some very interesting conversations in regard to how links should work. The idea of having more than the 'friend' appellation did come up and to my mind, people reacted favorably to it. One problem was the symmetry: to me you could be a 'friend' and to you I could be, technically speaking and for the sake of argument, an 'enemy'. This led us to such ideas as: 'a friend of a friend is not necessarily a friend'.
Got to go
Gilton
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 6:01 PM> The more you make that same value judgement, the less valuable it is-the more friends you have linked to you, the less likely it is that you are actually friends with them.
I've posted about this several times in different tribes because getting a request to join my network is often a cause of consternation for me. I'm actually pretty conservative in the use of the word "friend". I have a few close friends and most other people I consider acquaintances. But here there's only friend/not friend. I worry when I turn down an invite that the person thinks I actively dislike them, which is usually not the case. -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 6:36 PMthat shit is fascinating. tools like this create new ambiguities of interaction. i have the same thing w/ texting. sometimes i wish i had an autoreply button, coz you know the person who texted you wants to know that you've received the message.
in communication theory terms, the reason you have to worry is that tribe doesnt have a means of showing what goffman calls "civil inattention." that look of acknowledgement that says, i see you, you exist, but we dont have to talk to each other coz we're each on our way somewhere...
which is why so many invitations go ignored... it's the facesaving way out. if we could only look at the sender and say thanks, but no thanks. replying to the sender demands that you explain yourself.... -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 6:44 PMThe flipside that I forgot to mention here is that even if Tribe had a more nuanced way of representing relationships, you might still offend someone when your idea of them doesn't match up with what they thought it was. I mean, I don't always use the word "acquaintance" verbally even when that's what I'm thinking. I'll say "friend" as a shorthand, but in my head I'm thinking "acquaintance". But there are other folks who aren't that conservative about who they consider friends. They're extroverted and have tons of friends. So maybe they're offended when they bump into someone extro/intro like me who has a very few close friends and a few more close acquaintances and a lot of distant acquaintances? -
-
Unsu...
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Sat, April 10, 2004 - 9:49 AMgood point. no matter how tricked out the software is, two people are probably going to interpret the meanings a bit differently.
I'm reminded of the Harvey Penick "golf inspiration" book, If you Play Golf, You're My Friend.
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Sat, April 10, 2004 - 10:19 AMorkut has some kind of rating system. actually it seems to have several.
there's one to rate the 'strength' of the connection - haven't met, acquaintance, friend, good friend, best friend. this seems to be private.
there's the 'karma' system which allows you to designate yourself as someone's fan and rank them (privately) on trust, cool and sex appeal. fans show up on a person's page. karma ratings are computed if more than 5 people ranked you and show up on a person's page. no one can tell what rating they got from other people.
in addition they have friend groups and in your network people are color coded according to activity level.
can you get any more detailed? i doubt it. that important thing is that most information is private so there's no problem of offending people when rating them. i dont know how the system works so it's hard to say if it's in any way informative. it does seem to solve the problem with the wide use of the term 'friend' on other social networks.
-
-
-
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 6:21 PMThese would be a vast improvement -- "friend" is too generic to be of much value.
Relations are contextual too. A business contact can also be a competitor; a colleague, a snitch; etc. etc.
Could it be that these systems benefit from keeping distinctions loose and fuzzy? That some of the play in meeting others is in trying to figure out where they might stand?
(Meaning that a LinkedIn benefits as a networking tool from reducing play and making contacts more efficient).
-
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Fri, April 9, 2004 - 6:46 PMThat *does* seem to be the way things are playing out. A number of people I know on Tribe are also on orkut. But participate very differently there. I'm hardly on orkut at all. If I were looking for a job, that might change. Tribe is about being social, for me. I think it's great for other kinds of networking, too, but I let it hang out so much here that I'd have to create a new profile and/or clean up this one in order to use it for professional purposes.
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 13, 2004 - 6:39 AMCivil inattention is exactly right! I recall inviting a very 'famous' person know in Internet circles to join my network and I got silence. In another case, I just responded to stuff and another 'famous' person out of the blue asked me to join his tribe. In the first case, I was disappointed but I thought: 'perhaps, he gets invitations from everywhere, and this is his way of saying, let me watch you for awhile(by lurking) before I give you an answer'. Or he was just rude. In either case, I wish we had a mechanism for this important aspect of communication. Lurking is a way in which you can follow a thread and remain anonymous. I do that alot of times when I follow a thread but I do not, in my estimation, have anything of value to contribute. It is a form of courtesy. Perhaps, when people do not respond to your invitations, it is a form of courtesy. Non action rather than rejection.
Gilton
-
-
-
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Sat, April 10, 2004 - 10:37 AMdo you think tribe posts have enough text in them to benefit from current text classification algorithms? most posts seem to be no more than a few lines.
another idea (which i discussed at length in tribeideas) is using a clustering algorithm on tribes by using shared members as connecting edges. i think this would result in a good classification of tribes and as a result of the ideas and topics of those tribes. using this classification one could implement a distance function on tribe members. this distance function can then be used to find like-minded tribe members, potential dates etc.
to hear me rattle on and on about this: www.tribe.net/tribe/servl...iewThread.vm (somewhere mid-thread) -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Sun, April 11, 2004 - 3:51 PMTo a certain extent isn't that what the current catagorizing scheme does? The suggestion is interesting Steven Corman is doing something similar in textual analysis on documents, in some tribes there may infact be enough text to allow for a clustering schema to be developed. -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Sun, April 11, 2004 - 4:09 PMthere are around 14,000 tribes and 23 categories. how helpful is that? someone suggested a "librarian" post for tribe, to sort out the tribes into a more usefull category tree or just to find related tribes. i know i would not like to have this job, definitely not when tribes has 10 times as many users and over 100,000 tribes...
the clustering of tribes would give you information beyond just a category tree. it would find connections that may not be so obvious at first glance. an example of one (an obvious one) is a connection between the SF tribes and burning man. it's a connection people might not make but one that still can give as additional information about tribe's population. -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 13, 2004 - 11:11 AMi'm not sure which would be mroe successful (effective): using bridges/connectors between tribes (members in the venn overlap) to establish a relation, or using text-based associations. perhaps a combination?
in the case of using common tribal memberships, we dont know how important a tribe is to a member. All memberships are equal in that sense. I'm sure most of us, however, post to a handful, and lurk at several, but belong to even more still.... Posting isnt a sign of interest either (there's are lot of members for the amount of conversation at some of sexier tribes)... But then, if the point is finding the most active members and using them as a good measure of tribal commonalities, a combined membership/posting algo might really be interesting. It would basically uncover hot tribes according to the presence of tribe leaders, wouldn't it?
being able to hop around tribes using people as navigation would be pretty cool...
-
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 13, 2004 - 11:22 AMthat's basically what i intended to do.
* i think membership in a tribe is still a strong enough statement to consider. it shows at least some interest in the subject matter.
* posting in a tribe is an even stronger statement. how often you post, do you start new threads, etc. also help refine this.
* textual analysis when possible would definitely be a great help.
using the first 2 assumptions we can build a tribes graph with members as edges. the strength of the connection (weight of an edge) would be computed mostly according to the 2nd assumption.
whenever possible use textual analysis (at least on tribe descriptions or on posts en masse) to refine the results or as different connection types.
>>being able to hop around tribes using people
>>as navigation would be pretty cool...
think amazon-like "people who joined this tribe also joined..." -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 13, 2004 - 3:46 PMseems sane and rational.
now for another question. where's should one draw the line between "hard to find" and "easy to find"? does the fact that tribes are hard to find encourage moderators to invite people they know are quality tribers? what kind of social interaction might be forstalled if the system makes it too easy to get around and find things?
sounds counterintuitive, as a UI/UE person, but do others here agree (or not) that the work required to find the gems (one of which is simply being here for a few months!) acts as strong social filter?
-
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Wed, April 14, 2004 - 6:37 AMI remember there was a thread on the tribeideas tribe on the subject of connecting tribes via users, there was even a research paper posted on the efficiency of algorithms used for that. Unfortunately I can't find it - that tribe has too many messages.
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Tue, April 13, 2004 - 5:48 PMWow...I take off for a few days and things really start hopping... :)
> do you think tribe posts have enough text in them to benefit
> from current text classification algorithms? most posts seem
> to be no more than a few lines.
>
Individual posts, no; I think that you'd have to do something along the lines of taking the last n posts made by a given member and using those as their corpus. In this case, I think that you'd also want to append some keyword information (based upon the tribe and thread to which each comment was posted), to give some weight to that element.
> another idea (which i discussed at length in tribeideas)
> is using a clustering algorithm on tribes [...]
>
That's great, -- absolutely the sort of information I've been interested in!
Now I just have to read through this thread in detail...thanks, all -- a lot of good things to think about. -
-
Re: The Rise of the Machines?
Wed, April 14, 2004 - 10:13 PMMaybe a search system like a google for BBs to help find interesting posting and be able to bookmark certain interesting posts for later.
-
-